Comments on: Should the University of Manchester Students’ Union approve The Men’s Society? http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/ Student Direct - Manchester's Student Newspaper Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:57:41 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Chris http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-570 Chris Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:33:35 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-570 In a utopian world there would be a mens group and a women's group and over time these would meld into a human group. whilst i am fully aware that women still face considerable in-equality in life it would be enormously naive to think that this in-equality could be dealt with by women's groups alone, a more humanistic approach might just see us there. It seems to me that it is equally naive to deny the differences between first the sexes and secondly between each other. there is nothing wrong with being masculine, feminine or any of the in-between's. The only solution is to work together. yes women had to fight for recognition and rights and in many areas still do but surely the time is soon coming for a truce. fighting will get us no where, and anyway most modern free thinking men are enormously sympathetic to women's causes. compromise and a positive embracment of our differences can only move things forward. If this group is genuine and can cross some of these boundaries then i believe it could only be a good thing. Caitriona there is a delicate art in any argument of knowing when to stop shouting. you stand for some important issues and perhaps with a bit of humility you could see the creation of this group as a positive action and not a threat to your beliefs. so what if it all started out as a bit of a ladish group, I'm sure a lot of women's groups started as knitting circles and look what they have achieved. Its nice to have your cake and eat it but in the end you just get fat and smug. Perhaps its better to share. In a utopian world there would be a mens group and a women’s group and over time these would meld into a human group. whilst i am fully aware that women still face considerable in-equality in life it would be enormously naive to think that this in-equality could be dealt with by women’s groups alone, a more humanistic approach might just see us there. It seems to me that it is equally naive to deny the differences between first the sexes and secondly between each other. there is nothing wrong with being masculine, feminine or any of the in-between’s. The only solution is to work together. yes women had to fight for recognition and rights and in many areas still do but surely the time is soon coming for a truce. fighting will get us no where, and anyway most modern free thinking men are enormously sympathetic to women’s causes. compromise and a positive embracment of our differences can only move things forward. If this group is genuine and can cross some of these boundaries then i believe it could only be a good thing. Caitriona there is a delicate art in any argument of knowing when to stop shouting. you stand for some important issues and perhaps with a bit of humility you could see the creation of this group as a positive action and not a threat to your beliefs. so what if it all started out as a bit of a ladish group, I’m sure a lot of women’s groups started as knitting circles and look what they have achieved. Its nice to have your cake and eat it but in the end you just get fat and smug. Perhaps its better to share.

]]> By: Nigel http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-512 Nigel Mon, 04 Jan 2010 21:44:19 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-512 Having been at Man Uni in the lively times of the 70s, when feminism was exiting and about opening new possibilities for women and men, how sad the debate is so distorted by the likes of Caitriona. Leading feminists from that time now note the difficulies men have in entering women's work, in divorce law,in education,health and stereotypical expectations to take on responsibilities. No Catriona liberation never was about "rights" that somehow trump others but about allowing men and women to take full part in society according to the benefit of all. The key was democracy and debate. Surely the fall of the Berlin wall showed us all that enforced utopias end up oppressing all as they seek to end all possiblity of debate. Perhps youth will always tend to the simplistic and easy. Catriona you are a beneficiary of a stable,safe and remarkably free society do grow up. Having been at Man Uni in the lively times of the 70s, when feminism was exiting and about opening new possibilities for women and men, how sad the debate is so distorted by the likes of Caitriona. Leading feminists from that time now note the difficulies men have in entering women’s work, in divorce law,in education,health and stereotypical expectations to take on responsibilities. No Catriona liberation never was about “rights” that somehow trump others but about allowing men and women to take full part in society according to the benefit of all. The key was democracy and debate. Surely the fall of the Berlin wall showed us all that enforced utopias end up oppressing all as they seek to end all possiblity of debate. Perhps youth will always tend to the simplistic and easy. Catriona you are a beneficiary of a stable,safe and remarkably free society do grow up.

]]> By: Matt http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-378 Matt Wed, 02 Dec 2009 12:48:37 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-378 Doesn't really matter to be honest guys, it's a uni society. There is a society for juggling and another for paintballing. It's completely unimportant. Just chill out and have a nice day. Doesn’t really matter to be honest guys, it’s a uni society. There is a society for juggling and another for paintballing. It’s completely unimportant. Just chill out and have a nice day.

]]> By: John Dias http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-361 John Dias Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:57:01 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-361 The MENS Society would do well to point out the pain that men suffer when they are abused via partner violence. Government stats indicate that men who are injured by partner violence comprise 38 percent of the total, which is a significant amount. And that's just injuries, not attacks. 35 years of sociological and empirical data show that men are attacked by women with equal frequency as when women attack men. This research was conducted by experts in the field of partner violence; the research was subject to peer review and published in respected academic journals, and its validity and reliability are beyond reproach. The only counter to the decades of evidence on the gender parity of partner violence perpetration is pure ideology, i.e. the weighting of female victimization from partner violence as being "more serious" than male victimization, just because. That is a subjective decision, but it does not negate the evidence. To verify the evidence, check out <a href="http://www.dvstats.org/" rel="nofollow">DVStats.org</a>, where you can read the published and peer-reviewed studies from this mountain of evidence for yourself. Women perpetrate attacks against their intimate partners just as often as men, but women get injured in the resulting back-and-forth that they have caused at a 2:1 ratio. If you really want to reduce the frequency of partner violence (or even if you only care about reducing the rate of injuries suffered by female victims), then challenge female perpetrators. Challenge them as perpetrators and not as victims. Challenging women who perpetrate relationship violence will not only benefit their victims, but also the female perpetrators themselves. Violent women are ideologically portrayed as victims, and therefore they never get the mental health services and counseling that they need in order to have healthy relationships and preserve their families intact. Instead, they bring their violent behavior into every relationship they have, and because the violent woman is treated as a victim (even when she aggresses, initiating the violence), she simply can't learn better conflict resolution skills or work out her problems on an emotional level. Our society's attitude toward combating partner violence only recognizes men as the cause of all relationship violence -- even when women unilaterally perpetrate! Such an approach is devastating to the continuity of families and the health of relationships, and not only that but it leaves male victims out in the cold and ignores the mental health needs of both female and male perpetrators. We have got to stop looking at partner violence as a problem exclusively and solely caused by men who seek to dominate and intimidate women. As long as society embraces such a skewed, ideological view (which discards the evidence on who exactly are perpetrators and victims), partner violence will continue unabated. Challenge female perpetrators and you'll make a significant dent in partner violence. The MENS Society would do well to look into these matters. The MENS Society would do well to point out the pain that men suffer when they are abused via partner violence. Government stats indicate that men who are injured by partner violence comprise 38 percent of the total, which is a significant amount. And that’s just injuries, not attacks. 35 years of sociological and empirical data show that men are attacked by women with equal frequency as when women attack men. This research was conducted by experts in the field of partner violence; the research was subject to peer review and published in respected academic journals, and its validity and reliability are beyond reproach. The only counter to the decades of evidence on the gender parity of partner violence perpetration is pure ideology, i.e. the weighting of female victimization from partner violence as being “more serious” than male victimization, just because. That is a subjective decision, but it does not negate the evidence.

To verify the evidence, check out DVStats.org, where you can read the published and peer-reviewed studies from this mountain of evidence for yourself. Women perpetrate attacks against their intimate partners just as often as men, but women get injured in the resulting back-and-forth that they have caused at a 2:1 ratio. If you really want to reduce the frequency of partner violence (or even if you only care about reducing the rate of injuries suffered by female victims), then challenge female perpetrators. Challenge them as perpetrators and not as victims. Challenging women who perpetrate relationship violence will not only benefit their victims, but also the female perpetrators themselves. Violent women are ideologically portrayed as victims, and therefore they never get the mental health services and counseling that they need in order to have healthy relationships and preserve their families intact. Instead, they bring their violent behavior into every relationship they have, and because the violent woman is treated as a victim (even when she aggresses, initiating the violence), she simply can’t learn better conflict resolution skills or work out her problems on an emotional level. Our society’s attitude toward combating partner violence only recognizes men as the cause of all relationship violence — even when women unilaterally perpetrate! Such an approach is devastating to the continuity of families and the health of relationships, and not only that but it leaves male victims out in the cold and ignores the mental health needs of both female and male perpetrators. We have got to stop looking at partner violence as a problem exclusively and solely caused by men who seek to dominate and intimidate women. As long as society embraces such a skewed, ideological view (which discards the evidence on who exactly are perpetrators and victims), partner violence will continue unabated.

Challenge female perpetrators and you’ll make a significant dent in partner violence. The MENS Society would do well to look into these matters.

]]> By: matt http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-339 matt Sun, 29 Nov 2009 11:08:08 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-339 *shouldn't be *shouldn’t be

]]> By: Matt http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-337 Matt Sat, 28 Nov 2009 13:08:16 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-337 All I needed to do to make up my mind about this issue is ask "What if?". Caitriona's argument largely leans on the activities these people take part in, using them to discredit the group. However, what if a feminist group had DIY(note:DIY in the Men's Society included stitchery and cooking), sober pub crawls and tough guy/girl competitions? Nothing. If this person wants any credibility in fighting sexism she probably should be calling these activities "macho", since that's supposed to be what feminists and MRAs are collectively fighting against. All I needed to do to make up my mind about this issue is ask “What if?”. Caitriona’s argument largely leans on the activities these people take part in, using them to discredit the group. However, what if a feminist group had DIY(note:DIY in the Men’s Society included stitchery and cooking), sober pub crawls and tough guy/girl competitions? Nothing.

If this person wants any credibility in fighting sexism she probably should be calling these activities “macho”, since that’s supposed to be what feminists and MRAs are collectively fighting against.

]]> By: Schopenbecq http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-323 Schopenbecq Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:48:58 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-323 ‘Mysandry? Sex trafficking is a myth? Wow, could the above comment provide any more evidence of exactly why we don’t need Men’s Groups in the Union?’ The Guardian Oct 20th 2009 'The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country. The failure has been disclosed by a Guardian investigation which also suggests that the scale of and nature of sex trafficking into the UK has been exaggerated by politicians and media. Current and former ministers have claimed that thousands of women have been imported into the UK and forced to work as sex slaves, but most of these statements were either based on distortions of quoted sources or fabrications without any source at all. ' And this is why we need a revolution to stop rapists like you,Vicky ‘Mysandry? Sex trafficking is a myth?

Wow, could the above comment provide any more evidence of exactly why we don’t need Men’s Groups in the Union?’

The Guardian Oct 20th 2009

‘The UK’s biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country.

The failure has been disclosed by a Guardian investigation which also suggests that the scale of and nature of sex trafficking into the UK has been exaggerated by politicians and media.

Current and former ministers have claimed that thousands of women have been imported into the UK and forced to work as sex slaves, but most of these statements were either based on distortions of quoted sources or fabrications without any source at all.
‘

And this is why we need a revolution to stop rapists like you,Vicky

]]> By: GOrwell http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-322 GOrwell Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:38:07 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-322 The idea that one subset of society be restricted from peacefully assembling and through meaningfull discussion make it's issues clear, to me follows a dangerous line of thinking. Doubt not when I say the Jews of Austria were once silenced in the night, their voices cut by a group using the same ideaology. Those who fail to know their past aredoomed to repeat it. The idea that one subset of society be restricted from peacefully assembling and through meaningfull discussion make it’s issues clear, to me follows a dangerous line of thinking. Doubt not when I say the Jews of Austria were once silenced in the night, their voices cut by a group using the same ideaology. Those who fail to know their past aredoomed to repeat it.

]]> By: Schopenbecq http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-321 Schopenbecq Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:25:36 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-321 'Mysandry? Sex trafficking is a myth? Wow, could the above comment provide any more evidence of exactly why we don’t need Men’s Groups in the Union?' http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated http://mensnewsdaily.com/glennsacks/2009/10/25/after-big-hype-huge-uk-investigation-cant-find-1-person-who-forced-anybody-into-prostitution/ http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2850/ This is why we need a revolution to stop rapists like you. ‘Mysandry? Sex trafficking is a myth?

Wow, could the above comment provide any more evidence of exactly why we don’t need Men’s Groups in the Union?’

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated
http://mensnewsdaily.com/glennsacks/2009/10/25/after-big-hype-huge-uk-investigation-cant-find-1-person-who-forced-anybody-into-prostitution/
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2850/

This is why we need a revolution to stop rapists like you.

]]> By: Vicky http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-317 Vicky Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:43:45 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-317 Mysandry? Sex trafficking is a myth? Wow, could the above comment provide any more evidence of exactly why we don't need Men's Groups in the Union? Mysandry? Sex trafficking is a myth?

Wow, could the above comment provide any more evidence of exactly why we don’t need Men’s Groups in the Union?

]]> By: Schopenbecq http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-316 Schopenbecq Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:04:44 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-316 How can anybody, at least anyone not brainwashed by the gynocracy, read vile misandryst drivel such asthis and then not understand why boys commit suicide at a rate nearly 4 times that of girls? Or why they are lagging behind girls at school and most decidedly now 'under-represented' at universities (University of manchester has 53:47 female to male over-representation). Men need their own political groups because we are being raped by your gynocracy and we are seeing that every week. For example with sex trafficking being exposed as a myth recently by a massive Government enquiry - a myth invented solely to serve the sexual needs of ordinary women by banning ALL prostitution (with the co-lateral damage of leading to laws that will imprison thousands of men as sex offenders to be raped and beaten in prison). But carry on printing hate-filled articles such as this. Men are waking up. Young men are getting angry. Changes are afoot. And you won't be able to stop us, no matter how many fascist laws you introduce. How can anybody, at least anyone not brainwashed by the gynocracy, read vile misandryst drivel such asthis and then not understand why boys commit suicide at a rate nearly 4 times that of girls? Or why they are lagging behind girls at school and most decidedly now ‘under-represented’ at universities (University of manchester has 53:47 female to male over-representation).

Men need their own political groups because we are being raped by your gynocracy and we are seeing that every week. For example with sex trafficking being exposed as a myth recently by a massive Government enquiry – a myth invented solely to serve the sexual needs of ordinary women by banning ALL prostitution (with the co-lateral damage of leading to laws that will imprison thousands of men as sex offenders to be raped and beaten in prison).

But carry on printing hate-filled articles such as this. Men are waking up. Young men are getting angry. Changes are afoot. And you won’t be able to stop us, no matter how many fascist laws you introduce.

]]> By: Tom Locke http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-309 Tom Locke Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:50:42 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-309 I would like to add a little note to the first section by Caitriona Rylance. It would be: [Citation Needed] I think it is important to remember that, when talking about issues that are not personal opinions, evidence is needed to support conclusions. Sadly, none is provided. I would like to add a little note to the first section by Caitriona Rylance. It would be: [Citation Needed]

I think it is important to remember that, when talking about issues that are not personal opinions, evidence is needed to support conclusions. Sadly, none is provided.

]]> By: Tom http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-308 Tom Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:31:19 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-308 Reading those 2 parts was such an eye opening. What a bunch a evil fascist harpies would have a problem with a men's society? Goog luck to you - Mr Ben Wild! In the face of such man-hating door knobs you will certainly need it! Reading those 2 parts was such an eye opening. What a bunch a evil fascist harpies would have a problem with a men’s society?

Goog luck to you – Mr Ben Wild! In the face of such man-hating door knobs you will certainly need it!

]]> By: Vicky http://www.student-direct.co.uk/2009/11/should-the-university-of-manchester-students%e2%80%99-union-approve-the-men%e2%80%99s-society/comment-page-1/#comment-306 Vicky Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:44:51 +0000 http://www.student-direct.co.uk/?p=8826#comment-306 "While the vitriolic nature of some attacks has been amusing on the surface, they point at deeper issues; issues regarding freedom of speech (for everyone, not just the ones you happen to like)" If Ben Wild was actually interested in freedom of speech, he would not have sent private messages to myself and other people opposing the Men's Society, asking us to keep our criticisms quiet and only discuss them privately with himself. Sadly, Ben does not believe in freedom of speech as he is so keen to attest. “While the vitriolic nature of some attacks has been amusing on the surface, they point at deeper issues; issues regarding freedom of speech (for everyone, not just the ones you happen to like)”

If Ben Wild was actually interested in freedom of speech, he would not have sent private messages to myself and other people opposing the Men’s Society, asking us to keep our criticisms quiet and only discuss them privately with himself.

Sadly, Ben does not believe in freedom of speech as he is so keen to attest.

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